Month: January 2022

2022 Cyber Threats

Home •

Paul Martin and Colin Rooke discuss cyber threats as the biggest concern for executives globally, over natural disasters and business interruption.

Listen to the full episode here, or read the full transcript below.

Paul Martin:

Welcome to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Byers. This is Paul Martin, your host and business commentator on CKOM. Joining me today, Colin Rooke, the commercial risk reduction specialist in all of Saskatchewan, maybe the Western world, and of course, he’s at Butler Byers too. Colin, before we dig into too many things, we’re getting a chance now, here we are starting into 2022, but we’re really getting a flavour for what was going on in 2021, what kind of impact. Clearly, a year of change, a year of disruption, a year of everything different from working from home to you name it. I’m just wondering, what are the big things that came out of 2021 as we enter 2022? What’s the big topics that the industry is now talking about in hindsight?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. I really like this time of year because all the summaries come out, and being a risk management nerd, I like to read all the reports. What are the executives saying? So, this is like my Christmas when you get these summaries out, and I dive in right away. We’ve been doing this show for a while and, of course, I’ve always been interested in cyber, and we’ve, we’ve talked about it quite a bit. But when we first started, cyber was in like 58th, something like that, 58th, 59th place among executives globally, and I bring this up every year. It’s rising up. It’s rising up. It’s getting a little higher.

Well, now the number one business risk for 2021 was cyber and it’s beat out catastrophic losses. What’s very shocking to me is it also beat out business interruption insurance during a time of closures globally where business interruption has been the hot topic for anyone that’s purchased a policy while officially, executives globally are more concerned about the cyber threat worldwide than, again, natural disaster and business interruption. So, that’s big and it needs to be discussed.

Paul Martin:

You think, well, that’s something that happens in Toronto or New York or something, but no. It happens everywhere, and I think you in previous shows have said, if it hasn’t happened yet, it will happen to you. So, it’s kind of like COVID. You will get it. But we’ve had a couple of examples in Saskatchewan of some pretty significant cases. We are not immune. The attackers don’t care about geography. They just care about whether or not you’re vulnerable.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. There’s no longer any rhyme or reason. The attacks are less targeted, they’re more sophisticated, and it seems to be that it doesn’t matter what your IT spend is. If they want in, they’re going to find a way, and they’re always looking for new ways in. Now, I’m not saying there’s nothing you can do. Being proactive, learning about cyber, educating yourself, and having proper policies and procedures in place to have any staff member question anything that they find suspicious, that’s your best defence. But it’s not something that you can say “I’ve made the investment. So, I don’t have to worry about it.” It’s just not true. You can’t spend your way out of this. You got to educate your way out of this. Another big risk that, like I said, cyber has beat out is supply chain issues. If you’ve been to the grocery store, if you’ve tried to buy a car or anything, it seems to be they’re out of it, they’re back ordered, and yet that was less of a concern globally than cyber.

Paul Martin:

We’ve had a couple of fairly high profile cases in the province, I guess, the latest one being the Christmas Day hack of the Saskatchewan government, their liquor board. So, it’s not like the government of Saskatchewan doesn’t have 50 bucks to put towards a program. We’ve got a lot of technology. But even them, even organizations of that stature and with the security, they were aware of it. They were on the file and they still got hit. It’s really intriguing to me just how pervasive this has become. In fact, it looks like the cyber attackers are on … They’re winning. Right? They’re gaining ground. The rest of us are playing defense, but not nearly as well as they’re playing offense.

Colin Rooke:

It’s true, and one of the best speakers I’ve ever had the privilege of listening to in person and then meeting after, his name was Pablos Holman, and he said, “When the new Apple iPhone comes out or any Apple device and they show the lineup of people in Paris, in London, and Downtown New York, when they show the lineup of people, every single person in that lineup is a hacker. The only reason to wait four days to get the new iPhone is so you could be the first to break it and use it for your own devices.” He said, “I was that guy.”

Yeah. You’re right. They would’ve had proper IT. They would’ve had great minds monitoring their system. But it doesn’t matter. It comes down to human error. It comes down to lack of education. Without knowing exactly how the breach occurred, I know that those on the other side of it, it all came down to something simple, some little mistake that, in hindsight, was completely avoidable. That person would’ve had a funny feeling. There was some mistake made and it’s that simple.

Paul Martin:

The irony is it’s not a traditional attack. Right? It’s not full on frontal assault. It’s really, they send you something that looks innocuous and you bite. That whole phishing concept of they toss you a line, there’s a lure, and you’re not paying attention or somebody in your team isn’t looking with some detail to say, “That doesn’t sound right,” then a click, and later you’re in trouble.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. The more you read into this and you think about, well, how are these phishing attempts changing, so back to the pandemic, you have people that are not going out as much and there’s this heavy reliance on using the internet to do most of your purchasing. So, of course, the cyber criminals have taken advantage of that. So, one of the largest, or bigger emerging threat is in the insurance industry. So, you say, “Well, I’m going to really try and buy this online or not go into a brokerage. So, I’m going to source out … I want to ensure my home online.” It was out of Ontario, but it was called, Hidden Ace Brokerage. Completely fraudulent. Not real. They took people for hundreds of thousands of dollars who thought they were buying insurance online. They weren’t. It was all fraudulent.

It was a great website, I remember seeing it, and it’s not something that you say in hindsight, “This was suspicious right from hello.” Nope. It was very well done. It just wasn’t real, and they’re preying on people that are, again, using the internet to get things done that they normally would. They’re busy. They’re not looking. Maybe they don’t do their own research. They don’t question why they’ve never heard of Hidden Ace before, you make a purchase, and there you go. One, you don’t have the insurance you thought you did. Two, your money’s gone. Then three, they have all your personal information, and statistically people reuse the same password hundreds and hundreds of times over. So, now they know your name, your username that you’ve probably used a thousand times over, your password, and now they’re into everything.

Paul Martin:

All because you thought you were just doing business legitimately online. This may be one of the intriguing byproducts of COVID, of people not wanting to go out, want to do more online. So, now there’s a whole new caveat for us. It’s the old buyer beware thing. Well, I want to dig into this a bit deeper, if you don’t mind, Colin. We got to take a little break first, though. So, keep that thought. We’ll come back to it right after this. You’re listening to Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. This is Risky Business. Back in a moment.

Welcome back to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Byers. Paul Martin here, your host, and joining me, Colin Rooke, the commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers and today, the bearer of, well, scary news, I guess. You’re really just saying all of that talk we’ve been giving you before over the last few years about buyer beware, look out for scams online, and that kind of stuff. You’re just amplifying it right now. {art of it is the kind of the way we got conditioned through COVID to less contact with people, rely more online, and you’re saying that could be actually something to be doubly careful about.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. A common word throughout the pandemic is pivot. Right? So, that’s what cyber criminals have done. They’ve pivoted and they’ve gotten better, and they’re saying, “Okay, where’s the trend now?” Frankly, with more people, more users, call it, it’s right in their wheelhouse and it’s easy to trick. Back to that Hidden Ace insurance, when it was, I guess, widely known it was a scam, you have all these people crying out to the insurance regulators to say, “Well, you’re supposed to be monitoring this and, well, I don’t have insurance.” Well, no, they’re not. It wasn’t real. So, there’s no regulators stepping in saying, “We’re going to enforce policies that never existed.” 2021, they referred to 2021 as the cyber-demic, and I would agree. It’s run rampant, and 2022, they’re saying it’s just going to be a hangover from that. It’s not going to go away. It’s getting worse and it’s getting more sophisticated.

Another really good example of where people are being taken advantage of is supply chain disruptions. So, you go to look for a car. You can’t find one anywhere. So, you’re looking on various car sites and you go to a popular one like Autotrader or Kijiji and can’t find what you like. So, you dig deeper and again, you find another website that has exactly what you’re looking for, and the price seems fair and the delivery conditions seem fair and it’s in great shape and you bite. Again, you pay a deposit, car doesn’t show up, and again, they have all your information. There’s thousands of examples of everything from masks, personal protective … So many people are paying for fraudulent masks that never arrive only to get their information … Any scarce items.

You really have to say to yourself, “Have I heard of this company before?” Or if you look for reviews, you need to say, “How old are these reviews? Have they all been in the last three weeks?” Because if they have, they’re not real, or 90 days, call it. But people are scrambling to get things that were otherwise readily available. They think, well, thanks to e-commerce, I can buy something in Toronto and have it here. Why do I have to look into whether or not it’s valid? Well, it’s because it’s so easy to create a site that’s there to be fraudulent. Another big one, online gambling and sports betting, fantasy sports leagues. More people are doing that than ever and, of course, now there is what looks like completely legitimate gambling sites. They’ll give you tokens, you can spin the wheel, you can win. You’ll put a little money in and you’ll win. You take a little out, you put a little more, you’re testing the waters.Well, they wait until you say, “Hey, this is working well for me. Let’s put in a little more money, a little more, a little more.” Suddenly, gone. Again, it’s, well, I just wanted to play a game online. How is this possible? Well, when there’s a will, there’s a way, and they’re very aware of how many people are playing fantasy sports online and how many people are doing things like online gambling. So, they say, “Well, this is a great opportunity to get information.” It’s pretty scary.

 

Paul Martin:

I’m just thinking , it’s very easy to shop online, as you point out. But clearly, it’s very easy to scam online too. This is the other side of that coin that, yeah, it is easy, but it goes both ways to be easy if you’re trying to buy or you’re trying to take advantage of.

Colin Rooke:

Well, and you said coin. So, cryptocurrency, big problem. So, due to the rise of all the cryptocurrencies and people wanting to get a piece of the pie and having no idea how to do it, that is one of the fastest rising internet scams there are. Now, they’re not new, like five years ago, all kinds of bitcoin type scams. But now, with all these popular meme coins and limited availability, or at least ways to buy them, people are searching. You hear about like dogecoin shooting through the roofs, you say, “Well, I want to buy some.” Even if you buy cryptocurrency on a legitimate site, people don’t realize that that is digital money, meaning that it’s meant to be stored, and people don’t realize that if it’s just stored on the computer that it can be hacked and taken.

You’re supposed to treat that like cash. You put it on a USB and lock it in a safe. But people think because, well, it’s digital, I don’t have to take necessary precautions. So, again, they go to a new cryptocurrency swap site. They upload what they have to trade it for something else or make a purchase. Suddenly, the whole balance is gone because they’ve created a username and password. So, you said the word coin, and it’s a big problem with cryptocurrency and those that don’t understand how it works and what you’re getting.

Paul Martin:

Well, I can’t help but imagine, the image that comes to mind, and maybe this helps people who don’t really grasp this, to think this is the modern day version of the snake oil salesman running around the Wild West with a wagon full of elixirs, that it just sounds too good to be true, and guess what? It is. But I’m curious, Colin, if you can offer an observation as to, all right, you and I are talking about this. We’re enlightening our listeners. How’s the insurance industry responding to this? Obviously, they’re watching it too and saying, “What’s our role in this?”

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. That’s a good point, and what is the role of Butler Byers? It’s to help. It to share these resources. It’s to educate. So, a lot of what we talked about today may not necessarily apply to the business itself, but to all the staff. We talk about things like, well, presenteeism, productivity. Well, if you’ve just been taken advantage at home and you thought you had $10,000 worth of cryptocurrency, or maybe you legitimately did and now lost it, that’s going to affect you at home and at work. So, if we are training the individuals to look for things that aren’t normal, or articles or sites that just give you a weird feeling. If we’re training people on what to look for and giving the proper procedure, then we’re going to help not only the business, well, sorry, not just the individual, the business itself because they’re going to bring that to work.

Why does the insurance industry talk about this? Well, we need the individuals educated on cyber crime if the business has as any hope of dodging attacks. So, the people need to know what it is, what they’re looking for at home so that when they go to work, they can do the same. I’ve said this hundreds of times probably, it’s not enough to just purchase a cyber liability policy. Our job is to coach and educate so you never use it, because when you’re going through a major breach, insurance will be one of the last things on your mind, even though the costs are significant or significant because of the mess that it creates. So, if we can avoid all of that pain, we’ve done our job.

Paul Martin:

Colin, as always, good advice, and our time has gone. Again, it goes by so quickly. But we’ll pick this up in future shows. So, if you’ve enjoyed this, we would encourage you to join us again next time and listen to Colin as he provides the latest insights on where the world is going and how you can protect yourself and buy insurance, if that’s a possibility for protecting yourself as well. You’ve been listening to Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. This is Risky Business. Thanks for joining us. Talk to you next time.

January Tips

Home •

Paul Martin and Colin Rooke discuss New Year’s resolutions and tips for insurance in 2022.

Listen to the full episode here, or read the full transcript below.

Paul Martin:

Welcome to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Byers. Paul Martin here, the business commentator on CKOM, and joining me, Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. Colin, Happy New Year, first of all, and trust that the holiday season treated you well.

And because it is so early in the new year, it’s one of those things that, you know, it’s just a day on the calendar, but psychologically it’s a big thing, right? We start a new year and it was like, maybe I can rethink the way I do things. I put resolutions out there. I try and become very saintly for at least the first week of the year. I’m just curious, when the calendar turns over to January 1st, from the insurance industry’s perspective, I mean, what are the things we should be thinking about there? Are there New Year’s resolutions about insurance? Are there tips and ideas, things that I should be checking on? Should I be, you know, I guess there’s that day in the year when we’re supposed to check our smoke detectors, right? Is there something that, January 1st comes along, what bells go off in your head as the risk reduction guy?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, it’d be really interesting to see how many people include insurance-related items as part of their New Year’s resolution.

Paul Martin:

Yeah, probably not many. But you know, here we are, we have a chance to actually add ourselves to the list. So here’s your chance. Shine.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. No, it’s a good point. And with a new year, I think it’s just a good time to sort of reevaluate and talk about kind of the industry as a whole. And these topics will be pretty broad in nature. It’s just things to really think about. And I do want to discuss a few global trends, like what’s going on, for example, in insurance fraud or vehicle claims, changes, or just addressing, why is my insurance, why do the premiums keep going up? Like in 2022, am I going to see an increase? And this isn’t just for commercial insurance, this is for everybody. And again, and also just a few things to think about. You know, we’ve just gone through the gift giving season. So just a good topic to talk about, okay, if you had a particularly successful holiday season and amassed a bunch of stuff, have you remembered to let your broker know? And I’ll talk about the consequences of sort of forgetting to do that.

And then if we have time, I want to have a little cyber jab and talk about the prevalence of phishing scams and how the problem doesn’t seem to be going away and how easily Canadians are being tricked.

Paul Martin:

Well, you raised an interesting point about the holiday season and gift giving. And that’s certainly, you express some gratitude to the person who gave you the gift or whatever, but I would never have thought that I should add that to an insurance policy or flag it with my broker. That perhaps I got a, say somebody went to an art show or something and picked up something by a local artist, that I should be, you know, what should I be doing with that? If I got a piece of art, for example.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, exactly. And sometimes, like using the art example, it’s certainly considered rude if, Paul, you give me a painting and I say, “Hey, Paul was this pricey?” But on some level, you should know that. Because depending on the value of the art, and I don’t want to turn this into just a home insurance policy discussion, but you may not have coverage for it under your home policy. And you think about, maybe you get an aunt’s wedding ring or jewelry from a family member, or your significant other goes all out and buys you an expensive watch, really expensive watch, that sort of thing. It’s really important to remember to just call your broker or review your policy to say, do I need to add this? Is it covered in the blanket limit? What do I need to do if anything?

And from there, you want to make sure that you’ve got proper documentation. So for example, you get an autographed jersey of your favourite your athlete. Well, one, if you have an appraisal, you want to make sure you have that, but you want to have some sort of documentation that you actually do have it. So we talk about taking photos, taking videos, an inventory, that sort of thing. Because in the event of a loss, you are going to be expected, required, to prove it was yours. And then from there, prove the authenticity. And so on the extreme, there is a recent case where a piece of art worth over $14 million U.S. was not added to a policy because the individual that received this piece of art was unaware of its value. And then there was a large, there’s a property, a claim, there’s a loss, major loss. And the individual that had donated that piece of art said, well, is this thing okay? And I hope you have it insured. The individual did not realize that they needed to. Which really prompted this discussion. That significant gifts, you want to make sure you are covered, that they’re added to your policy, that they are listed if need be. And it’s just a good time to really take inventory. Have you been spending too much time on Amazon and filled your home full of stuff? Well, just make sure you’ve got the appropriate coverage.

Paul Martin:

You know, one of the questions that comes up periodically, I mean, I guess the notion of sports memorabilia is pretty common stuff, and so that is not out of the ordinary. The piece of art might be more the unusual one. But sometimes you’ll get cash. If you’re sitting on cash, I mean, what’s the story around that?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. I mean, if it’s sitting at your house you’ll certainly want to make your insurer aware. I mean, on certain policies, there is a small limit, emphasis on small, for valuable papers, items, and including cash. But you know, that’s an important one that you’d want to reference, that I do store a lot of cash in my home. And in the event of again, an incident, is that cash covered? And of course you would have to have some sort of documentation that it’s there. You know, there’s the joke that home burns down and, oh, I had 15 Picassos in there. Well, you have to prove that you had them in the first place. So it’s not as simple as just saying you’re out $120,000 that you’d been keeping under a mattress.

Paul Martin:

Well, you never end the ability to learn on this stuff. I mean, it’s really quite remarkable. And when we talk about it and you lay it out like that, it just seems self-evident, but on the other side is we never think of it. So that’s the very reason for the conversation today, I guess.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. And just with the same vein of going through tips, I do want to talk about vehicles. So if you’ve tried to buy a new one, a used one, or frankly need any major repair, I mean, everyone knows there’s a shortage and we have markups all over the place, delays, chips are delayed. But I do want to talk about a rapidly rising trend now. And so vehicle theft, re-vinning has always been an issue, but now it’s skyrocketing. Because the value of stolen vehicles is shooting through the roof. I mean, if you drive any sort of truck, you’re at risk. And not only are you at risk, I mean, it’s going to be re-vinned in a minute and it’s going to be off to the United States and you’ll never see it again.

And so it’s very important that you’re doing your part to, well, one, make sure it’s properly insured. Two, make sure that you’re keeping your valuables out of it. Three, the vehicles are locked, and you’re parking those vehicles in the safest, I guess, place that you can. Try not to leave a vehicle overnight at a strip mall where there’s very little traffic, that sort of thing. But the other kind of rising major issue is, again, related to vehicles, is catalytic converters going missing. And with the increase of the production of hybrid vehicles, the catalytic converter in a hybrid vehicle is worth about five to seven times that of a regular vehicle. So most don’t know this, but just in a regular vehicle, I mean, you can get about 250 bucks for a catalytic converter. And I hope I’m not educating thieves right now, but on a hybrid vehicle, like $1500 for the metals contained within.

And on the commercial side of things, I mean, whole fleets of vehicles are getting the catalytic converters cut out. Buses, especially. Or any large actual trucks that are sitting around. They’re showing up in the morning, they’re flipping a sensor and they’re realizing that, yeah, this has been cut right out. So again, make sure you’re checking for this stuff. Properly lit areas, video if you can. And just, again, something to be cognizant of, that in addition to now more than every year stolen vehicle is worth more than it’s ever been, as is the value of the parts on the vehicle, like rims and catalytic converters are going missing all the time.

Paul Martin:

Very insightful stuff, Colin. Thanks. I’ve just got to take a break here. We’ve got to take a little break. So we’ll come back. We’ll pick this up with maybe couple other tips. You’re listening to Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. This is Risky Business. Back after this.

Welcome back to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Byers, Paul Martin, your host here and joining me Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. And Colin, before the break we were talking about things that should come to mind because it’s the start of a new year, and sort of some of the trends that are out there. I’m really intrigued by the way COVID is changing supply chains, all of those kinds of things. And it’s pushing prices for some products, like vehicles in particular, pushing them up. Used cars are worth more than they were when they were new. I mean, it’s really quite remarkable. And I hadn’t thought about that becoming a commodity that would become a target for thieves. But you’re saying this is something we’re really seeing a big increase in.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. I mean, there’s a rapidly rising trend of the Canadian car dealer selling the used and some new vehicles to the States. I mean, you trade in your model, it goes right to the States for the, because they’re taking advantage of course, of the exchange and the supply issues. No different for thieves. When you can’t get any used cars on your used car lot, you start to ask fewer questions. And so vehicles are going missing and getting re-vinned and stolen at a higher rate. And I’ve followed these statistics for quite some time. And I know I said every truck, which is true, but it always surprises me that Honda Civic is just like consistently the number one stolen vehicle. I’m not sure why. I mean, there certainly are a lot of them, but if you’re in a Civic, watch it pretty close.

Paul Martin:

Well you know, it wasn’t that long ago, there was a campaign going on about don’t leave your keys in your vehicle. I mean, this probably just reinforces that.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. And the speaking of keys, another trend is that they’re able to connect to the signal from your digital key, come into your car remotely, that an app is the actual key, and then get into the vehicle. So that’s getting worse. I haven’t seen a remedy to it, but it’s certainly becoming easier with digital key fobs and also app-based keys to then get into a vehicle. So I assume a solution is coming, but again, just be cognizant of that.

Paul Martin:

Well, we’re talking here more about personal lines, but I guess it still affects commercial property owners too. But really you’re talking in a grand way about property claims going up and that’s translating into higher premiums, I’m thinking right across the board, right? Whether that’s commercial or for your personal property.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. You know, we spend a lot of time talking about premiums increasing. And that’s commercial and personal lines. And it’s been each and every year for quite some time. And I do want to shed just a little bit of light on some of the reasons for your home insurance that you may not have considered. And two of which I think if you spent some time thinking about, you’d get there yourselves, but urbanization and also, strangely enough, solar panels. So you’ve got people living closer together in smaller spaces, more stuff. So then a hailstorm comes in, it affects a lot more individuals than it normally would. Plus inside every unit there’s more. And if anyone’s ever looked into purchasing solar panels, very, very expensive. And so that is one of the factors that’s driving up, you know, you look at like, for example, downtown Calgary, getting hit with hail. Well, the more people in downtown Calgary, the claims just rise.

The opposite of that though, is urban sprawl. So you’ve got urban sprawl where, in some areas 10 years ago that’s a farmer’s field. No damage to anyone. Suddenly you’ve got a new development, new suburb full of houses. I mean, you look at Ontario, well, just the way Saskatoon is growing, and Regina in this province. And so you have urban sprawl also saying, okay, well now these areas are larger. And homes are being damaged where there never was a home.

But I think this one is going to really make people think. The number one component is social media. And it really does make sense. I post on Facebook that I got a brand new roof and it was all due to an insurance claim. And I’m so happy all I had to do was pay my deductible because a new roof would’ve been X amount of dollars. Well, people see that. And they say, I wonder if there’s any damage to my roof that I could put in a claim for. And that happens. It’s happening at an alarming rate, where people are noticing on social media, the, and I’m not suggesting this is fraudulent in any way, but it’s reminding people to maybe look into a claim. And then when you’re brag-posting, people say, you know what? I’m going to see if I can get a new roof out of my insurer. And it’s working.

And I don’t really know what the answer here is, but I do know that if more people are putting in claims, it’s going to continue to impact pricing. And so, make sure you’re getting the proper advice before you go ahead with it. You know, certainly if you’re concerned about an issue, get it checked out, but don’t just, don’t follow the bandwagon and put in a claim because you think someone else did. Just make sure you’re getting the right advice and that you’re properly informed.

Paul Martin:

Listen, we’ve got about a minute and a half left here. I just wanted to touch on this point you had made at the very beginning of the show about some updates or some new things on cyber. We talk about this a lot, but I know there was a study that you’ve come onto that’s really quite intriguing.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. You know, quick jab, I guess, at a few industries, but a study out of Quebec did a mock phishing scam recently, and they sent out one million emails to see not only who would open the email, but then who would go down the rabbit hole and keep clicking. And alarmingly, 20 percent of those that received the email opened it initially. And then 14 percent kept going all the way down. But there’s some industries, primarily finance and IT, now, you could argue that the IT firms were just trying to see what was going on, and maybe it was a secured environment, but we’ve got education, finance, I’ll have to admit it, insurance is on this list too, and IT, that really clicked at an alarming rate. And so again, just make sure you’re educating your staff around cyber and what to watch for, and if you notice anything suspicious at all, don’t open it first to determine what it is so then you can tell everyone else. Just leave it.

Paul Martin:

It’s a classic shoemaker’s kid story here, isn’t it?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Yeah.

Paul Martin:

That the ones that keep harping to us not to fall prey to the phishing scams are the ones that actually clicked on it.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, absolutely.

Paul Martin:

Colin, thanks. We’ve run out of time. Really insightful and great tips for thoughts that we should be having as we enter a new year. So maybe we’ll revisit this a little mid-year or something and just see, you know, remind people again.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah.

Paul Martin:

You’ve been listening to Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. I’m Paul Martin. Thanks for joining us. This is Risky Business. Talk to you next time.

Year End Review

Home •

Paul Martin & Colin Rooke are joined by Ryan Warner to summarize the conversations of 2021 and discuss what to expect in 2022.

Listen to the full episode here, or read the full transcript below.

Paul Martin:

Welcome to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Buyers. Paul Martin here, your host, a business commentator on CKOM and joining me Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Buyers. And we’re joined today by a familiar voice, at least is Ryan Warner, the benefit specialist with Butler Buyers. And Colin, we’re coming to the end of the year, the kickoff of new year. I mean, these are points on the calendar, but really psychologically, they’re really important about how you turn a page. And we jokingly on the 1st of January, at least till noon is the time many businesses are actually on budget for that one day of the year. But I mean, that says something doesn’t, it is that we’re entering a new time and we kind of think, well, we make new year’s resolutions, we make promises, we make goals and objectives. So kind of timely to have our talk today about just what is the new year holding and maybe I’ll just throw it over to you and you can bring Ryan into the conversation too.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, absolutely. We’ve covered a lot of, some familiar topics and a lot of new topic or sort of new trends and old topics. And I thought it’d be pertinent to bring Ryan on board, just to talk about, I guess, summarize some of the other conversations we’ve had on this show around group benefits and trends that we’re seeing in the market. We certainly see costs increase in certain areas now that, I guess we were more familiarized with kind of life with COVID and just want to get an idea of some of the trends we’ve discussed, for example, something that just sticks in my mind was dental. Everyone ran and got their teeth cleaned and every apparatus that they’ve been putting off that sort of thing, is this something that’s going to continue? Where is pricing going? What do employers need to think about for the new year? Where should they be spending their resources? And how can we educate our clients and anyone listening on what to know for 2022.

Paul Martin:

That’s good. Well, Ryan, you spend your day talking to business owners day in, day out, and I’m curious on the topic of benefits. I mean, what’s top of mind for them? I would guess it has to do with COVID, it’s been such a dominant thing, but am I right in making that assumption or is it something else completely?

Ryan Warner:

Well, I think COVID is been on everybody’s mind and these vaccines and how that’s being rolled out to various employers policies. That’s been a big contributing factor to the conversations I’m having on a daily basis and preparing for what is coming in the form of benefit costs and how to remain competitive, how to continue to attract and retain talent. Of course, those are always the key messages that employers are delivering my way. It’s a competitive world. And it’s hard to find good people that are willing to put in the time and effort, so they want to reward them appropriately. And these are all key contributing factors right now.

Paul Martin:

I’m going to come back to that, the notion of COVID, but you sparked a thought for me in that, when you’re dealing on the benefit side, it is about the relationship between employer and employee. And we’re hearing this thing, the great resignation, I’m sure that’s capturing a lot of mind share for you is that businesses are seeing employee turnover. I mean, I’m not really seeing a good definition or description or explanation for the great resignation, but it apparently is out there. I mean, what are you seeing on that? And what are they saying to you about it? And what does that mean for benefits plans?

Ryan Warner:

It seems to be a lot of, kind of up in the air thinking from employees right now, they’re all, I guess, more aware of the fact that there are other options out there. There’s a lot of job openings, constantly new postings, I mean, businesses are always trying to grow. So they’re always looking for people. And I think folks, as a result of the pandemic have had maybe more time to sit back and kind of contemplate their position and what they want to do going forward. So I think employers more than anything are trying to figure out how do we really convey the value that all of these various benefits and total rewards or compensation components truly are in front of the employee. So, it’s not always clear in the employee’s mind, the wide array of benefits that they have access to. So more and more I’m talking to employers about how to deliver that message so that employees aren’t jumping ship for a quarter more an hour or something that’s just foundational around compensation, but really looking at the whole picture.

Paul Martin:

I’m certain that employers see benefits as part of the hiring package? What’s the perspective from employees? I mean, has the great resignation, has COVID, has this upheaval changed that perception or are they more demanding, less demanding? Is it a real factor, not a factor in their thought processes?

Ryan Warner:

Well, for those that I would say is part of this great resignation and if they’re going out and trying to do their own thing, obviously, then probably, well, I shouldn’t say obviously, but they’re probably not as tuned into the various costs and coverages associated with all of the various components of their compensation package, that said those that are hunting for other jobs are absolutely making sure that their employer has benefits to take care of their families. I mean, they’re trying to get a better sense of what are the mental health support components that are there. They’re looking for pension plans and group RSPs, I mean they’re looking for a wide range of coverages, not just necessarily the pay, but again, the key is how is this being delivered? How is it being communicated either at time of acquiring a new employee or attracting a new employee or to retain them, how are you communicating it so that your employees know exactly what they have? So they’re not jumping ship just because they assume something is more attractive elsewhere.

Paul Martin:

That’s an interesting concept or a comment that you make that sometimes it’s less about what’s in the package, more about making sure they understand what’s in the package. This is something Colin talks about a lot. Do you help employers actually craft messaging and be able to say explanations of the programs? Are you part of that explanation? Like, do you show up and do briefings?

Ryan Warner:

Absolutely. The insurers, I would say do a decent job of making materials available. I think where the challenge lies is that consistent drip of information so that employees are recognizing what’s there. If you hit them with everything all at once, often, so much of the package gets lost in the noise of just so much information. So it’s really more about fine tuning your communication strategy to make sure that you are flagging various value ads, various components of the plan throughout the year and ongoing, I think that’s the best strategy to take, to making sure employees are aware of what they’ve got.

Paul Martin:

Just stand by for a second. I just want to ask Colin about that. I mean, Colin, you spend your time talking principally to business owners and managers, and we’re talking here about how you transmit that to the next tier of employees within an organization. I mean, how do you approach that?

Colin Rooke:

You’re referring specifically on the risk reduction work. What we do is, when we’re having a conversation building on a plan, it usually starts at management executive level. However, we talk about, okay, well, who needs to be involved? Who do we need to bring together into this circle to execute on this? Or can we develop a team right here and now? It’s rare that those individuals in the first meeting would then be the very responsible for carrying out the work. So our job is to create the urgency, to organize and prioritize and also quantify, okay, is this worth doing? Are we in agreement that we should put the time and effort into this topic? And then from there we say, okay, well, who’s best to execute on this inside the organization? We’ll work with that person, so we’re not just bugging you, the client or an executive saying, is it done? Is it done? Is it done? We’re making sure the right people understand what we’re doing and why, and then we’re working together to accomplish that.

Paul Martin:

All right, well, listen, we got to take a little break. And when we come back after this, Ryan, I want to ask you about, what trends you see for 2022. So keep that in mind, we’ll be back to you in just a minute or two. You’re listening to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Buyers, Paul Martin here. Back after this.

Welcome back to Risky Business, commercial insurance with Butler Buyers. Paul Martin here, your host, and joining me today, along with Colin Rooke, is Ryan Warner, who’s the benefit specialist with Butler Buyers. And Ryan, just before the break I sort of suggested that if you could give us a hint or a thought of what you’re seeing about trends that are coming in 2022. I mean, is sentiment shifting in this or employers leaning in new directions or is the industry going in new directions? I mean, what do you see as the topics of conversation right now?

Ryan Warner:

Well, table stakes right now is all, seems to be surrounding mental health in particular and how to prepare going forwards for some of the increased costs that are a ripple effective of claims being at all time highs and the disability space, employee assistance programs and counseling services, employers are wanting to support their staff and their family members to make sure that they have access to those types of resources. The industry is seeing costs go up in the disability space in particular. So I think being proactive and helping employers understand that getting folks access to the types of counseling that can really support mental health challenges in advance of it becoming a disability is only going to help. So I really do see that continuing to be a major topic of discussion as employers brace for increased costs there and also trying to figure out how to improve their services.

Paul Martin:

Colin, you got a thought here.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, Ryan, from the insurance, insurer perspective, are they sort of proactively reaching out or expanding, either their offering or their suggestion, like are they doing anything on their end saying, we know this isn’t going away. We know mental health is a big topic. We know that our customers are dealing with issues that really, I don’t think they could have ever predicted they might be dealing with. You think of the idea of, if your employer said, “Hey, do you want to do the same stuff for the same pay from the comfort of your bedroom wearing pajamas,” that would be great. And then suddenly, we’ve got this rise in mental health and of course people are burnt out, stressed out, but anything coming from the insurers, just saying that we’re thinking of that. And this is what we suggest the businesses do for their people, or is there work being done in that space.

Ryan Warner:

Honestly, I think it’s a really challenging space for everyone. Insurers, I think each one has their own approach. They’re dealing with their own pools and how this mental health impact is hitting each of them. I don’t know that there is one blanket answer that’s going to solve this overnight. So the key messaging we’re getting is, this changing of guard and how plans are set up. So right now, something like psychotherapy is not typically a common paramedical service provider. So if you don’t have that on your plan, that’s one item that could be embedded, employee assistance programs, or EAPs is another one that insurers are saying, this is a great program. It’s not high cost. It’s something that you can put in there to give employees access to essential counselling support in a variety of ways, not just mental health, but to get them access to more counselling support, to get them in a better place prior to it becoming so severe that they find themselves off work for a long period of time.

We’re all learning right now. I mean, the last couple years has been chaotic to say the least. I mean, I think everybody’s, like you said, burnt out, stressed out, challenged with whatever their own personal situation is. So I think we’re learning, but I do expect that we’re going to see insurers start to speak out quite a bit more as to some of the things that they would recommend to help combat some of this activity.

 

Paul Martin:

It’s interesting Ryan, because I think the headline story that I picked up from you here today is that disability claims are record high. And I mean, that’s obviously the thing that’s going to turn the heads of employers, because that will ultimately reflect in premiums. And I suspect there’s not one employer listening here who says, well, I’m going to encourage disability claims. I mean, they’re trying to help their people so that they, as you said, get the help they need before it becomes a disability claim. And I’m just curious, I mean, what’s driving this increase. I mean, is it just the uncertainty that’s centered around COVID and how that has just messed things up and people get insecure and uncertain, and that leads to deeper problems?

Ryan Warner:

Well, I would say I’m far from a mental health expert, so I won’t tread down that path other than to say, the vast majority of claiming activity in these pools at least has a component of mental health related to it. So it’s not to say that all claims are only mental health, but a significant portion, upwards of 80% of all the claims that are coming in have a mental health element. I suspect it’s a whole combination of a lot of very complex issues. And I think as we’re learning more about mental health and what creates some of these challenges for folks, I think that just almost compounds the reality that I have support. Maybe I need to take time just to get myself in the right space.

So the access to counselling, I think unfortunately, the old school way of thinking is still prevalent. I think there’s enough people that still are not seeking counselling because they’re trying to deal with these issues themselves. And then ultimately gets to a point where it’s almost too far gone and it results in a very serious outcome. So I don’t know for certain on what the solution is or what the reasoning is behind it, but we are definitely in a transitory period right now where the COVID situation is just amplified all the challenges that everybody’s facing.

Paul Martin:

Well, I find this quite interesting and I’m guessing that somewhere in the midst of all of this too, is the, if I could call it media attention, from Olympians to whatever saying it’s okay to talk about mental health, we have the day of the year where we… it’s a day dedicated to speaking up. And so it’s no longer just swept under the rug, it is actually mainstream. And if you want evidence of it, you just talked about it, look at the number of claims, they’re going up. Business people, you need to pay attention to this topic.

Ryan Warner:

Definitely, definitely. You know what, I can’t say enough that there are solutions available or services available that don’t have to cost the plan fortunes in premium. And I mean, it’s one thing to put them in play, but then to also support and continue to communicate that they have those things available to them in a very private setting. It’s not as though folks are trying to get a sense of what you’re dealing with. It’s, here is private access to counselling support, the comfort of your own home. And I would definitely encourage employers to take a look at this, if they don’t have it on their plan today.

Paul Martin:

We got just a minute left. Colin, you want to jump in?

Colin Rooke:

Well, yeah, and it’s also frankly, good for business to talk about mental health. I mean, we talk a lot about engagement and presenteeism and productivity and absenteeism. For years, if you’ve been suffering alone, and then of course, now people are talking about it more. I mean, it would make sense that, you would feel more likely to bring forward how you’re feeling and then therefore lean on the plan for some help. I mean, it does make sense. And I think you’re right, employers need to recognize this and put in the work or else suffer the sort of consequences of what’s going on behind the scenes, if this is ignored.

Paul Martin:

Yeah, and also, I mean, that brings us back to that conversation about the great resignation. If you want to hire the best talent, you’d better be cognizant and sort of, actually sort of conversant in the language that we’ve been talking about here through this show. It’s top of mind and like it or not, there it is. So learn about it, deal with it. And I think the message I’m getting from you two today is, you are a resource that can help employers get through this, to navigate it, and to become just more skilled and better at what they do.

Gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us. My guest today, Ryan Warner, the benefit specialist with Butler Buyers and Colin Rooke, our resident expert on all things related to risk management with Butler Buyers, commercial insurance. Thanks again for joining us. Talk to you next time.

All About Snow

Home •

With the season upon us, Paul Martin & Colin Rooke discuss all about snow, ice damming and insurance.

Listen to the full episode here, or read the full transcript below.

Paul Martin:

Okay. Welcome to Risky Business. Commercial insurance with Butler Byers. This is Paul Martin, the host of the show and the business commentator here on CKOM. And joining me today, Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist in the world of insurance. And of course, he’s one of the guru, big, big shot guys over at Butler Byers.

Colin, we dedicate a lot of energy, effort and focus in this program to, hey, business person, there’s a new thing coming out that you need to be watching. But new and emerging risks are always, I guess, interesting. We always like to hear about things that are new. But, in point of fact, all the stuff that we would’ve covered two or three years ago are just more mundane things.

The whole world isn’t all about new. There’s changes coming to old stuff too. That’s what I want to talk about today. And I guess seasonality is upon us. We’re starting to see the first bits of snow this year and I just was curious. I mean, how does the insurance industry look at snow and is it something we need to be talking about?

Colin Rooke:

So, the insurance industry’s stance on snow is they don’t like it.

Paul Martin:

Straight, simple. And when you’re a buyer of insurance and the insurance company doesn’t like it, there’s usually a message implicit in all of that.

Colin Rooke:

Right. The insurance company would prefer you say, no, thank you, to snow at a high level. It’s a big deal and actually it’s getting worse. And I’m not even talking really about global climate change. However, for some reason, ice damming in the last 10 years is turned into a thing and really it wasn’t happening the 50 years prior.

I mean, 2011, 2012, there’s a lot of ice damming claims and all the adjusters had to attend these conferences just to learn what it is, what it does, how to adjust for it. And even the policy wordings, there’s all this controversy as to whether or not it’s covered. And from there, and I think that’s the catalyst, it’s really changed the whole insurance industry’s stance on snow.

So, if you’re in the snow removal business, or know anyone that is, or your broker’s doing their job and asking you either as a business owner or as someone that’s leasing a space, if you’re doing your own snow removal, which isn’t often the case that question’s asked, it is a big deal to insurance companies. Well, there’s the slip-and-trip side of things, but on top of that, it’s damage to roofs.

So you have people saying, well, I know what ice damming is and I don’t want that. So I’m going to try and scrape my own roof. And you’re doing $40,000 worth of damage trying to get the snow off, to save a couple thousand dollars’ worth of potential damage because you’re not trained. You know the snow shouldn’t be there but you’re not exactly trained to remove it properly.

On top of that, you look at commercial buildings and you’ve got people again, whether the roof, whether just the premises itself, we got increased prevalence of injury. And then you’ve got these half million, three quarter of a million dollar roofs being completely damaged by, call it volunteers or untrained individuals, trying to get the snow off.

And so it’s just completely rocked the industry to the point where the actual professionals are paying just jaw dropping increases on the liability portion of their policy, all because of how much damage is being done by individuals, for the most part, around this idea of clearing snow, being helpful, trying to look after their own building. And in doing that, essentially ruining it.

Paul Martin:

Who would’ve thought that snow would be becoming such a factor in all of this, and in a way the enemy of building owners. And I guess this applies to, if I heard you correctly, I mean, we don’t usually talk about home insurance that much here, but this is as much a residential issue as it is a commercial one.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, it is. And we don’t really talk about home insurance. However, because of the prevalence of the problem, we have a guide for how to treat your home in the winter because you’ve got individuals doing what they think is right, which ends up actually doing what isn’t okay.

Now, I’m not saying don’t buy one of those long rakes and pull some of the snow off your roof. But then when you have people up on the roof with a shovel, for example, damaging shingles because they want to get right down to it, that can turn into a big deal. And so, for any homeowner listening, we’ve got a guide that not only helps you deal with snow, but it talks about what you should do, for example, if a storm is coming.

Real world practical advice how you can mitigate as much risk as possible, if there’s snow, if there’s freezing rain. When the big snowfall comes, if there’s a blizzard, all that stuff. It says, okay, the best you can do to mitigate, follow these steps. And so, we’ve expanded on the commercial side and said, we can help a lot of individuals with this information as well.

Paul Martin:

It’s interesting because it takes us back to a theme. It’s a theme that we’ve talked about repeatedly and really underlying all of this. I mean, you provide a whole pile of information to business owners or to people charged with managing businesses. And in a way they would feel like, well, that Colin’s selling me something here. And really what you’re saying is, listen, it’s the other way around.

It’s, I’m going to give you information that will make you look like a better customer, a better prospective customer to the insurance industry. It’s a novel concept of, we spend a lot of time trying to be really good to our customers, but do we ever think about the reverse of how do we become a better customer of any of our suppliers and insurance being one of them. And you’re giving me some hints here on how either people in business or just people on their personal side of their life can become a better customer of the insurance industry. And if they do that, then what? I mean, what does that mean? How do the insurance industry look at it?

Colin Rooke:

If you get enough people working on risk mitigation, it’s going to drive overall premiums down. But what a lot of people don’t consider too, is built into almost every home insurance policy, if you’ve gone claims free, is a claims free discount. And just losing that discount alone in the event of a claim can… If you’ve had it for a long time you don’t realize what you would be paying until it’s gone. And then suddenly you’re paying the full rate, and maybe a little more because of the claim. And it can end up being a pretty shocking year-over-year increase.

And you mentioned, just again, being a better customer. So, for any landscape company or snow removal firm that’s saying, look, I know how to clean a roof properly. Colin doesn’t have to come on this show and tell me that snow is a problem. That’s right. I’m not going to argue you don’t know what you’re doing.

But for example, when you prep a job site, before you start the snow removal, do you have a checklist that is followed, or even at a high level, that the company follows, that you could send to someone like me that I can share with an underwriter who thinks you’re high risk, you’re going to ruin roofs. People are going to slip and break hips and we’re going to be out tens of millions of dollars in liability claims.

Do you have a checklist? And is that checklist being passed on and explained to shed your company in a better light? And that’s the real point here. It’s not that business owners don’t know their craft, it’s how are we documenting and sharing that information to prove that you do.

Paul Martin:

It’s like having a safety manual at work. Well, listen, we’ve got to take a little break. We’ll come back. I want to pick this up, this whole notion of a checklist. So you’re, I think providing some really interesting insights today that go beyond what we would normally talk about.

You’re listening to Colin Rooke, commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers. This is Risky Business. Back after this.

Welcome back to Risky Business. Commercial insurance with Butler Byers. Paul Martin here. And joining me, Colin Rooke, our expert in this area. And Colin, we were talking just before the break about the importance of not just knowing how to do things, but it’s actually documenting them. And man, if there’s anything I hate doing, it’s tracking that stuff and writing it all down. But you’re saying it is money and time well spent, because you’ll save money at the other end.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. And I don’t like it either, which is why we make it easy. And again, back to some of these checklists or manuals. I mean, they’re deliberately written so you can review what we’ve done, nip and tuck, and there you have the manual.

These checklists, I mean, depending on the job you might say, look, before we start a major project, we just want to rip through this checklist each and every time. Or maybe you share it again at the company level. Or at bare minimum, fill it out and discuss it. And again, we have these checklists and manuals for so many industries, and when you go through them it just seems like some of these questions are just assumed, right? Like, I can’t believe you’re asking me this question.

So for a firm that specialize in snow removal, do you have a cleanup procedure at the end of the shift? It’s like, of course we do. We put our equipment away. We haul it back to the next job and we start working. But what’s crazy, and what I’m trying to stress, is your underwriter doesn’t know that. So they assume you have nothing, and it’s helter-skelter, and they just, you don’t even know what you’re doing from job to job.

What do you do if snow begins to melt? Are there hoses and pumps available for what water removal? Again, I wouldn’t have lasted in this business this long if I didn’t have some contingency for water. But again, these are questions that they don’t know the answer to. Or they need to know, and the reason they need to know is because of claims.

So every underwriter’s going to say, Colin, you tell me that now, but two years ago, such and such claim came in and they had no policy for this. They didn’t own any hoses. Therefore, ice started to melt and we had a $1.3 million flood in a commercial building. And so-

Paul Martin:

Sorry, Colin, I’m just guessing too. The thought that’s crossing my mind is most of these policy ratings are set up on a national basis, I would assume. And you don’t have to live in Canada very long to know that the snow they get in Ontario, Quebec is different than the snow they get in Alberta and Saskatchewan. But I’m guessing that we get rated with that heavy, wet snow from the east, because it’s all factored into a national pricing policy. And the question I would ask a homeowner or a business owner, is how well do you know the snow in Ontario? Because that’s how you’re being rated in Saskatchewan.

Colin Rooke:

Yes, you are a 100% correct. Anyone that’s in Saskatchewan knows that if you forget to shovel your driveway and you’ve driven over it a few times. I mean, it comes out in two-inch blocks and those sit on your lawn for the next two months, they don’t do anything. Whereas in Ontario there’s a lot of wet snow, melting, freezing, more thaw, more wet snow. And so they’re assuming that, okay, well, in Saskatchewan, Manitoba especially, it’s the same problem, just magnified by 20.

And so, again, you just cannot assume that the underwriter in Toronto, or Vancouver for that matter, has any idea what it’s like to be here. In fact, most have never been to Saskatchewan and may never. And so again, it’s about documentation. And you cannot assume that, well, they know what it’s like. I mean, yes, we’ve got local markets here that may do a better job, but again, you need to document, you need to spell that stuff out. Or someone’s clicking no on a box that should be yes, which is going to impact your pricing.

Paul Martin:

If you’re just joining us on this program today, you’re listening to Colin Rooke with Butler Byers and we’re talking about risk mitigation in the commercial insurance world. And we’re talking about snow and your roof and who would’ve thought that.

But Colin, I was really taken by your comment that in the insurance world, snow is a big thing. Really, probably doesn’t go through most people’s mind. Hey, snow happens every year. I mean, what’s the big deal. No, it is a big deal.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, it is. It’s a rising cause of, in particular liability claims, and it’s getting worse. It’s not quite as bad as cyber but certainly a hot topic. And so whether you’re in commercial or personal lines, we’ve got a lot of documentation and checklists and procedure manuals that are designed to help, not only the end user, but help us explain your approach to snow.

Paul Martin:

That’s what I wanted to get into. You’re always on this program talking about your step-by-step lists, your risk mitigation programs, your checklists, just basic educational, informational material that’s available to anybody. And they can just dial you up, you’ll send it to them. But do you have checklists for getting ready for winter?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah, absolutely. And something that would come up in a risk reduction workshop would be, how do you handle snow? Do you take care of it yourself, or do you hire a third party? And it’s easy to say, well, Colin, I’m a manufacturing facility, let’s stick to employee engagement and leave. And we have to cover these bases because it’s a big exposure.

And if we don’t know your approach to snow removal and you’re doing it yourself, and there is damage, there is a high likelihood that you will not receive any compensation for that. And so, it’s got to be addressed. And frankly, we in almost all cases, push our clients to outsource that because of the inherent risk.

Paul Martin:

Well, in going through the background material you gave me in preparation for this program, and in one of the things that caught my attention was, there is actually a policy for getting your car out of a snow bank if you get stuck. You have a vehicle extraction policy. I mean, I defy any business owner in Saskatchewan to show me their written copy of their vehicle extraction policy.

 

Colin Rooke:

I personally have not ran into a company that has this and you think, well, why do I? Well, again, it’s about showing that you are thinking of everything from a risk mitigation perspective in that, in the event someone goes off the road or can’t get out, you have a document that says what to do, so you don’t do something foolish and cause either damage to yourself, the vehicle, or others.

And in the event that, and accidents do happen, we can show that you did your due diligence. You did what a reasonable person would do to prevent this, which goes a long way when we are trying to explain why there’s a sizeable claim on the file. We can say, look, they did everything they could have, including, they have a vehicle extraction policy.

And sometimes things don’t go well and damage happens. And not that I’m going to go through this vehicle extraction policy line by line but it even says, when you need help, these are the approved third party providers that we want you to call in the event you are stuck. So you don’t get your buddy with some chains, because you don’t want to tell the boss that you’re stuck in some snow.

You have a manual that says, you are to call one of these three businesses. You are authorized to call them. We will not be upset if you did. We want our truck out safely by a professional, not the guy that pulls over that wants to help, but isn’t trained, and certainly isn’t going to foot the bill for any damage.

Paul Martin:

Colin, I think that we have to wind it up here as we’re out of time, but I think it would be a great challenge to our listeners to say, call Colin, he’ll give you your vehicle extraction policy.

Colin Rooke:

Right.

Paul Martin:

Snow bank extraction policy. It’d be, if you need one, here’s one. So anyway, you’re listening to Colin Rooke, the commercial risk reduction specialist with Butler Byers, providing us with some insight on preparations for winter. Colin, thank you. And thank you to our listeners for joining us for Risky Business. Talk to you next time.

Conversations on Risk Management

Home •

Paul Martin and Colin Rooke discuss how to have a conversation about risk management before the paperwork.

Listen to the full episode here, or read the full transcript below.

Paul Martin:

Welcome to Risky Business Commercial Insurance with Butler Byers. This is Paul Martin, the host of this program. And you hear me as the business commentator on CKOM. And joining me, Colin Rooke, the Commercial Risk Reduction Specialist with Butler Byers. Colin, we have covered a lot of ground over the last few years as we’ve been doing this program, and here we are coming up towards the end of another calendar year, and those conversations come out of that. But before we get to it, it just struck me as we have covered a lot of ground here, and I think probably for some people who listen to this program, I think, hm, sometimes I’m not sure if I have a problem. I’m not sure what I don’t know. And also, sometimes I just don’t even know where to start on this stuff.

I know Colin talks about these step by step programs and filling out forms and stuff, but it doesn’t have to necessarily go that way, does it? You can sit down and just have a conversation as well as do the actual kind of pull out the paperwork process.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Absolutely. So, not everything that we do needs to always be a big project, meaning we have a lot of our … Certainly, our ongoing clients, and then we also have a lot of people that would just reach out and say, “I need help with this. You talk about risk management. You talk about helping business and I have this problem. Is there anything that you can help with?” And so, we spend a lot of time doing that.

You can be any size, but it doesn’t always have to be a large project. Sometimes, you run into a topic. It’s brought up. It’s brought forward to you. And you really don’t know where to start. It could be a work flow, for example. We consider that risk management as well. Now, we’re certainly going to put our own, I’ll call it, insurance-y flair to it. So, we’ll explain what it is, how to set yourself up, or how to follow the work flow, whether it’s return to work, that sort of thing, and then certainly we’re going to add the consequences of not doing this, maybe some claims example, talking about, again, your own liabilities, which I think is a good thing because no one else is going to present these topics in that type of light.

So, really good example. One of the shows that we’ve done recently was talking about if you have a Board of Directors, we had a very very involved assessment that we can do, we can walk the Board through, and you can grade yourself on our level of proactiveness, risk management.

However, each topic in that assessment will frankly bring us down a rabbit hole to dozens of other topics, and that’s what we’re after. We want to know at a high level how you’re thinking, and then we really want to dive in and say, “Okay, so this is an area where there hasn’t been as much understanding or attention to detail.” And certainly we’ll work on that, but what I want to, I guess, bring forward today is that would be for an established Board operating for some time, and now we’re at the point where we want to do a review of how it’s going.

But what if you’re forming a Board? What if you don’t know how to form a Board? You don’t know how to orient a new Board member, or maybe you have been, but you want some advice on the right way to do things. So maybe you have a Board. Certainly there is an orientation. We do invite new members, but really there’s nothing proceduralized about this. There’s nothing recorded. We can help with that also.

We can provide a work flow that says, “Here’s what you should do from a protecting your liability standpoint.” It walks you through exactly what to do and what not to do, every step, and if you just followed it, you’d be doing great. But then, we add in, “Here’s why you need to do this. Here’s why it’s so important, and here’s some examples of what happens if you didn’t do this and you were called to task or there was an incident.”

So, we explain the why. We explain the exposure. We explain the potential costs. But we also help you plan out the whole workflow, the whole, again, in this example, forming a Board or bringing in a new Board member. We can help you do that as well.

Paul Martin:

I’m curious. This seems more like the kind of stuff you’d hire consultants for, and you’re saying you just do this. To borrow a word from you, how is this insurancy?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. It’s a really good example, and I certainly don’t want to say, “Don’t hire a consultant.” And you might need a consultant to go a lot deeper. We spend a lot of time working or finding other third party advisors that can help our clients if they need more. The reason this is an insurance question or issue is we’re telling you how to orient a Board member or form a Board because it’s very important that you do things a certain way. And if you miss certain steps, you can open yourself up for liability, which we will explain that, “Here’s why you should do it because it’s a best practice, but here’s why you need to do it from a protecting the Board standpoint.”

So, it’s advantageous to us. It’s advantageous to our clients. And it’s advantageous to an insurance company to say, “They have a step by step orientation package and they understand exactly why they need to follow this from a loss perspective because we’ve explained that to them.” And suddenly, the entity is better protected. We’ve done our job as risk managers and the insurers are happy.

Paul Martin:

It really is just the notion of, at the end of the day, this topic or kind of discovery point that we come back to, is that you do all this stuff properly. Run your business well. Insurance companies like that because you look like a better risk for them. You look like you’re going to make fewer claims and smaller ones if you make them.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Absolutely. And that’s what I’m trying to stress that it doesn’t always need to be the big project, or sort of the project that gets you over the hump. It might be from day one. For example, we’ve talked a lot about COVID and return to work procedures, what you can do and can’t do, the fact that we’ve got policies in place. But if you say, “Okay, well frankly the whole idea of return to work due to COVID is a little rich because I don’t have a return to work policy as it is, let alone bolting on the changes around COVID or hybrid work force.” And so again, you can hire consultants to help you do this, and I’m not saying don’t.

But we’ll help you understand why it’s important to the insurance company that you do this as well, and it is all part of our getting to know the clients, working with our customers, eliminating risk, having risk identified and quantified and working an ongoing plan.

Paul Martin:

It just strikes me that, if I go through this, and I’m making the assumption that I’m going to hire the consultant because that would provide me with good advice, but you’re really helping me figure out what questions to ask the various consultants about when I’m grading them.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Absolutely.

Paul Martin:

You’re giving me kind of a report card that I need to check all the boxes when I’m hiring this consultant.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. I couldn’t have said that better, that we’re not trying to replace the consultant. It’s something that we’d say, “Look, this is what you need to have done. We’re not going to be the ones that do this for you. You are free to, or we can help you find that individual. However, this is why we need it, and these are the ramifications of sort of not doing it or ignoring the problem.”

Paul Martin:

Great. Colin, we’ve got to take a little break. We’ve reached the midpoint of the program. I can’t believe how fast it’s gone by, but you’re listening to Colin Rook, the Commercial Risk Reduction Specialist with Butler Byers. I’m Paul Martin. This is Risky Business. Back after this.

Welcome back to Risky Business Commercial Insurance with Butler Byers. Paul Martin here, your host. And talking with Colin Rooke, the Commercial Risk Reduction Specialist at Butler Byers about, well, I like to call him the librarian. He just is a place where you go with … He isn’t all the books, but he knows where all the books are. He’s really a very knowledgeable guy in terms of being able to guide, direct, and help.

And I think the point you’ve been trying to make in today’s program, Colin, is that this doesn’t need to be, as you called it, a big project. And sometimes, people just call up and ask a question. Right? Even small steps are good steps.

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Absolutely. Another really sort of good example would be training around diversity and inclusion. Anyone can find that information. You can Google it. There’s a ton of literature, and certainly we have that as well. But again, when our clients ask us about, “Can you help with this?” There’s more of a flair to it. So, you can find your own research on the impacts of diversity and inclusion on an organization, and then we add in, sort of to that same sentence, what most wouldn’t consider is management liability.

So whether we bring it up or it’s brought up to us, it’s for the right reasons, and then we say, “In addition to that, here’s what could happen if you don’t do this. Here’s some examples of where it’s gone wrong.” And so, yes. Here are the impacts. Here’s what you can do. Here’s why you should hire someone to work with your organization. Here’s why you should change your policies and procedures. Here’s why you should be more aware and certainly educated.

But if you’re going to take this information and shelve it, here are a bunch of reasons why you might want to change your mind from a liability perspective, and we’ll walk our clients through that for almost any topic. And again, as you referenced, we’re not trying to replace the consultant, but this would certainly be something you want to make sure every item here gets covered because we are suggesting, “This is what the insurance markets want to see. This is a best practice.” Therefore when you find that help, you’re checking off all the right boxes and we have helped you do it.

And not specific to this topic, but there are a lot of conversations that go on in organizations or documentation, whether it’s a, well, employee safety manual or driver’s safety training. Yes, every organization wants to, for the most part, make sure their employees are safe and their cars aren’t bumping into others.

But a lot of it is driven by fear or the request of an insurance market. It is. You see it in the movies and it’s a real thing. And so again, if we can get ahead of that and say, “We’re already identifying. We’ve already identified it. We’ve quantified it. We’ve organized and prioritized it and we’re working the plan right now,” we get ahead of that. And so, when the question comes up, “Oh, we already knew about that. It’s already taken care of.” That’s the point of all this.

Paul Martin:

I’m assuming that it goes unsaid here, but this helps in worst case scenario. You need to make a legal defense. At least you can say, “Hey.” Point to a judge and say, “Look, here’s where we tried. We gave it our best efforts. We’re not ignorant on this. We actually took some steps.”

Colin Rooke:

Absolutely. The term negligence, of course, is used very frequently in our line of work. The difference between negligence and not is just what did you do. Did you make some kind of attempt or were your efforts reasonable? Did you put any effort? Was there due diligence done? And if we can say, “Look, bad things still happen. Things get missed. Accusations occur. But here’s what we’ve done to do our part to ensure it didn’t happen, doesn’t happen, doesn’t continue to happen.” We’ve documented all of that in the event that you are called to task.

We have worked together proactively, identified the problem, and have made some measure to address it.

Paul Martin:

You know Colin, some years ago, I took some governance training for the kind of stuff that Board of Directors participants or members would be taking, and one of the bits of advice we got from, I think it was a professor or something, from one of the Ontario universities who was speaking to us, and he just said, “Ask yourself this. I’ll pose this to all of the business owners and managers that are listening to us today. If you’re on the stand, how are you going to ask that question? What are you going to say if you’re on the stand?”

And I thought that was a very sobering kind of a question. It really made you think like, yeah, I can’t just give this short change or ignore it and pretend that I don’t know what’s going on because how are you going to answer that on the stand. You want to sound like you’re actually in control and in charge and ahead of the issue.

Colin Rooke:

It’s funny. I use that example all the time, and that’s what drives a lot of this. When called to task, what will you say you did or did not do? You can’t do everything, but could you make some attempt at all? And so, I use that phrasing all the time to say, “Look, it could be a matter of just circulating something and asking your employees to read it over and maybe you do that biannually,” but it’s the attempt. It’s the effort. It’s the thought that matters.

Paul Martin:

I’m going to take you back to where we started this conversation here today, and it was really sort of designed to speak to business owners in particular, business leaders, managers who might be scratching their heads and saying, “I think this Colin guy is onto something but I really don’t know where to start.” So, but what do you say to them when they ask you that question, or how should they be answering it in their own minds?

Colin Rooke:

That’s a good question. It all starts with a conversation about risk, learning the organization, learning where you’ve been, where you are now, and where you’re going and how we can help get you there. It really does just come down to, okay, let’s just chat. Let’s figure a few things out. I want to know how you think and we’ll go from there.

Paul Martin:

Yeah. Not particularly complicated, and don’t be afraid. Just send an email. Pick up the phone. Give you a call. Right? You or someone on your team.

Colin Rooke:

That’s right. If you have a question that you can’t find an answer, you want sort of the risk management flair to it, just ask it and we’ll get you what you need.

Paul Martin:

And that may include background information, just some general reading. Make yourself more knowledgeable about the topic. And funny thing happens once you start to gain some knowledge. You ask better questions.

Colin Rooke:

Yep. Absolutely.

Paul Martin:

And those questions are often asked of yourself, right?

Colin Rooke:

Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

Paul Martin:

Well listen Colin, this has been a very interesting conversation as always, so thank you for this. I just want to invite our listeners, those who are in business or in roles or responsibilities, even I think members of boards or not for profit boards and charities and this kind of stuff, these rules kind of apply to you too. So, just reach out. Give me a call and we’d be pleased to chat with them.

You’ve been listening to Colin Rooke, the Commercial Risk Reduction Specialist with Butler Byers. I’m Paul Martin. Thanks for joining us. This is Risky Business. Talk to you next time.